Unstoppable vs Way of the Warrior

lifeline99

I have a heavy weapons hero who has been throwing out 11-15k annihilates in cosmics (I'm using legion gear, getting closer to justice) but I'm using WotW... Is there a reason I should be using unstoppable instead?

flowcyto

They should offer the same dmg bonus; Unstoppable would only equate to more dps if you needed its extra energy on knock and otherwise had to end build more when using WotW. WotW overall offers more of a defensive bonus (even if its rng-based), though Unstoppable does have extra knock resist going for it.

lifeline99

Thnx for the breakdown flo ... I was using wotw for dodge/resistance layering. I'm happy with my damage enough to sacrifice a bit for survivability.

sterga

flowcyto wrote: »

WotW overall offers more of a defensive bonus (even if its rng-based), though Unstoppable does have extra knock resist going for it.

Not necessarily. Unstoppable has flat damage reduction. Most enemies don't actually do very high damage, so even a small amount is nice. And it works all the time.

If you get a free respec in the future, sure change the passive if you want to. Otherwise? Probably not worth bothering.​​

flowcyto

Unstoppable's dmg shield is much weaker than Invuln or even IDFs, though. I suppose for solo content and some trash its fine, but against anything that hits even moderately hard its not gonna be worth much.

sterga

flowcyto wrote: »

Unstoppable's dmg shield is much weaker than Invuln or even IDFs, though.

Which is also true for WotW VS LR. I don't think anyone expects Offense passives to have defense on par with defensive passives.

I went ahead and tried out WotW on my Warzone Dailies. I didn't see much difference between it and Unstoppable. There were times when it seemed like I was taking more damage with WotW, but I only tried it one day. If the OP's build is similar to mine stat wise and tree wise, then it probably isn't going to matter which one he takes. Both defense are around the same.​​

lifeline99

Thanx Sterga .. I ran some tests as well ... In the end Unstoppable was more fuel efficient because of the knocks; I could tap spam all day. If (more like when) i find a build that works for me that combines a single blade spam attack with a Heavy Weapon spike attack (because reasons) I may go back to WotW ... but other than that defense wise there isn't much difference between the two. It only affects how I mod my gear (and my spec trees) to get moderate defenses. Oddly I found WotW better for a defensive DPS play-style (more charges and AD) and Unstoppable better for an aggressive (more tap spam and AO) play style. Damage wise they are identical. Thank you guys so much for going that in depth for me.

flowcyto

sterga said:

Which is also true for WotW VS LR. I don't think anyone expects Offense passives to have defense on par with defensive passives.

I went ahead and tried out WotW on my Warzone Dailies. I didn't see much difference between it and Unstoppable. There were times when it seemed like I was taking more damage with WotW, but I only tried it one day. If the OP's build is similar to mine stat wise and tree wise, then it probably isn't going to matter which one he takes. Both defense are around the same.​​

Eh, I don't think that that the small dmg shield is excused just cause its not a defensive passive- my argument is more like it doesn't scale down as well by comparison as other defensive stats. But you are correct that they are both offensive passives and neither will inherently make you tanky even vs. trash- WotW is just on the 'higher' end of general defensive boosts for a dps passive (though, in a roundabout way, you could argue slightly more knock resist can count there sometimes- ironically also an RNG thing).

Regardless, WotW's extra energy only happens vs. enemy dodges (very situational in pve, afaik), so if ur able to use the extra energy on knock, then it seems Unstoppable is better the choice here.

oobtree

I can at least attest that WotW is a very popular freeform pvp passive these days.

bluhman

A lot of folks have said that Unstoppable is just a worse WotW with gimped defense. Which used to be true when dodge gear was super-powerful. After a lot of playing and seeing just how DPS' gets applied in situations ranging from soloing crap, to alerts, to cosmics, though, I think Unstoppable does get a bit undersold in general.

If you don't use dodge, the bonuses on WotW are actually rather negligible as far as defense goes. You get a small ~20% chance to dodge, and each dodge only really reduces incoming damage by about 30% if you don't have extra avoidance. I'd say the base dodge you get from WotW really is about as strong as the damage subtraction on Unstoppable is, averaging out a higher reduction versus less reduced hits. Inversely, the subtraction on Unstoppable also makes block damage (damage that's already heavily reduced) noticeably much lower, so Unstoppable goes great with ranked-up blocks.

If you're heavily strength-built and using a knock based melee build Unstoppable is a much better choice. Most survivability nowadays (from non-dodge) actually comes from the defense stat, which can make a huge difference when stacked with equipment and HP. Then you pair the energy bonuses you get from Unstoppable, as well as the extra knock resistance, and Unstoppable in general serves as a powerful contender to WotW's offerings. Being a strength-primary also grants you a specialization that turns constitution into raw defense stat, which just boosts both sides of your combat power even further. Str/Con builds can get super-beefy and still hit really hard.

To get the most out of WotW's defensibility, you kind of have to gimp your offense in some way. Both bountiful-chi and elusive monk decrease damage output when activated, even while further boosting your dodge skills even higher. Guardian and Warden can fish the defense stat for extra offense, which is a benefit that is missed out on if you invest heavily in dodge defense gear. And that said, dodge gear is something you'd mainly only use if your passive offered a dodge boost, otherwise it doesn't really do anything.

WotW undoubtedly has the upper hands in terms of melee-dodge specialty and can last way longer on the defensive with the right moves. Even with that, they can enable and disable parts of their kit to gear more heavily for damage or surviving, such as unslotting Parry. For most builds I do nowadays though (even laser sword and claws etc.) Unstoppable is my default choice for melee DPS.

flowcyto

I guess I'll just say that I still don't find the arguments for the small dmg shield to be compelling, but there are indeed good reasons to still pick Unstoppable over WotW. If I implied otherwise, then my apologies.

chaosdrgnz43

WotW is good for those who have dodge on their builds. Most pvpers use it because lots of players use Masterful Dodge and/or have high dodge chance. Possibly Rupture/Focus builds too.

Personally, I prefer Unstoppable because of the energy gain after knocks. Makes fully spamming powers like Annihilate/Massacre more frequent. The small dmg reduction is complete trash. Sure it's suppose to reduce DoT dmg, but it isn't much. The knock resist helps...somewhat. Even more so if you don't have Str.

blockwave

Just personal choices I guess, I use unstoppable on my main because I don't like the rng of Dodge

kamokami

I suggest Unstoppable on a build geared for DEX. WotW on a build geared for STR.

Why Unstoppable for DEX?
Because you can't block if you're knocked in which case even moderately large hits can kill you. If your knock resist is low Unstoppable can help a lot.

Your % chance of being knocked = 100 / (100 + your knock resist %)

If your KB res is 0% then your chance of being knocked is 100/100 = 1 = 100%. If your KB res is 100%, then your chance of being knocked is 100/200 = 1/2 = 50%.

Why WotW for STR?
Because it has arguably the best defensive bonus of any Offensive passive. You can get geared up enough to push your WotW toon past 50% dodge chance. Which makes you tougher by a very meaningful margin.

jennymachx

Taking STR for WotW also makes sense due to the fact that Juggernaught spec can be used to signficiantly increase defense as a second layer of damage mitigation after dodge, and since a melee DPS build should be taking CON as a secondary. I'd expect that the wardicator spec setup would really help too.