Just Roll CC into Defense

wraithshadow13

So... Does anyone else think that they should just roll the CC defenses into regular defense? I for one am really tired of seeing my juggernaut of a tank being pimp smacked across the level. it doesn't make much sense in ahving this nigh unkillable hero if they're being tossed around like a rag doll. More so, when playing against Power armor, which has some insane and often constant(ly annoying) knocks for some reason. It just doesn't make sense to me to leave it out as it's own thing when (ime) it doesn't do anything anyway. Any time I've tried to use it, the bosses just negate it any way. I don't PvP for the obvious reasons, but then even against regular enemies, they don't seem to survive long enough for it to matter. So the CC's, knock resists and such often seem like they're a waste of time, as enemies either ignore it, don't use it, or don't survive long enough to care. Why would I give up just straight defense for that? Especially when I can roll that straight defense into offense as well. Given the state Crowd control is in anyway, what's the point? Just save the points and let it all just be Defense.

Am I alone in this? Should this be simplified for it's own good?

wraithshadow13

gradii said:

No thanks. And you're mixing up CC resistance with KNOCK resistance. CC resistance should NEVER be tied to defense.

I'm not mixing them up, but I'm just rolling them together. I know the difference, but at the same time, it just seems like a waste trying to spec for one and being left open for the other, or suffering defensively all together. Trying to get a good mix of the three wouldn't really seem to leave much lee way either, so why not make them all just defense. Why would it be such a bad thing, especially with the mentioned boss fights that negate it any way?

With the new alerts especially, wouldn't it be better just to have a higher defense given the one shots every 20 seconds? If you're spec'd to be a brick @#$% house, wouldn't it be a bit bothersome that base enemies are slapping you around the map like it's nothing? Again, power armor comes to mind here. Being rooted isn't nearly as obnoxious and confuse just never really seems to happen, so I didn't focus on those as much. Sleeps can often be a bit of a fun defense break, but again, with the new mission just bypassing CC resistance (or is it a bug) or making the fight out mechanic useless, it just doesn't seem like there would be much reason not to.


Instead of just saying no thanks, could you explain WHY it should never be added together? From the PvE standpoint, there really isn't much use for them to be separated.

williamkony

I'd be against it, personally. It's one of those things you have to make a choice on. Higher effective HP, or the ability to maintain control of the situation? Not to mention that Defense can feed into the popular Guardicator/Wardicator loop. I just feel like merging CC Resistance with Defense would make Defense do too much. Not to mention it'd take Defensive Mod choices down to just Dodge/Avoidance, or Defense. Compared to Critical, Offense, Healing, and Superstats for Offensive Mods, and Cost, Cooldown, Energy, Crowd Control, and Perception for Utility Mods... It's just incredibly boring. X)

I WOULD like to see CC Resistance and Knock Resistance get merged, though, given that they're both used for the exact same purpose of keeping control of your character. And, of course, making those two stats actually work in all content would be wonderful. :P

holloweaver

gradii said:

Merging CC resist and Defense would mean the end of non defense stacking wardicator builds and diversity.

This.

There are already too many fingers complaining about Wardicator, don't make it a CC-ardicator.
To the OP : if knock/hold are such a problem for you, consider to retcon for CON PSS + STR. I'm tanking with CON PSS + STR and henchmen have to crit to bounce me away. Even Ripper needs to be lucky to knock me up.
So far, the only henchmen that have a 100% chance to knock me away are those crazy Grab-the-Money henchmen but keeping an eye on them is usually enough to block it.

wraithshadow13

williamkony said:

And, of course, making those two stats actually work in all content would be wonderful. :P

This is kind of a big gripe of why I would want the stats merged. I don't PvP, but when I have/did, there were some really awesome builds for knock and control which were insanely annoying, but really cool/effective because they'd built the characters that way. It kills me that the content is as such, that those builds are (not completely, but almost) negated in most "end game content". I myself had a really decent psi control build, which became useless due to nerfing, bad boss mechanics, and the pewpew mentality.

Wouldn't it be easier to bring the mods and abilities more in line with how the game actually "works", rather than how it should work, or even used to work?

For me personally, the better option would be for Cryptic to actually rebalance and fix their game. I would love to see CC based on an actual defensive roll, so that yes, bosses were harder to hit it on, but it was entirely do-able. It seems like the current system is built in a way that just really limits people and their builds without actually doing anything to balance them. That's partly why the defense stacking is so popular. Hell, even my Giant growth character is unable to maintain his size do to nerfing without balance. As mentioned before, NPC power armor minions are just smacking teams around the map, and have been for a long time and nothing is being done to balance that with other NPC knock groups (almost called them knockers) but let's face it, that is never going to happen. Ever. Cryptic will never fix and balance the game unless something happens that breaks it completely, so with that in mind, what would be the more efficient option?

With what I've mentioned so far, like the outright negating, the uselessness of certain skills (player cc on bosses), powers not working, and of course endgame boss mechanics, what would you guys suggest? We can't really keep things as they are, because broken continues to break, things become more unbalanced in a game that's already a DPS race as it is. Aside from rebalancing the powers, being stuck in a select few specific builds (because those are the only ones that work) or merging different types of defenses, what would be the more plausible options here? Something the devs could actually consider adjusting to make things better for players?

theravenforce

I'd disagree with this suggestion.

Why?

In CO, we have a relatively rare ability. Block.

Block is incredibly useful and can, protect against being flung left, right and center in instances and in combat as well as NPC & Player CC systems.

All it requires is that players make active use of it and NPCs obey it globally, currently the second part is an issue.

There is no reason to further reward players who stack defense by making them nigh immune to Crowd Control as well. NPCs in PvE do make use of Crowd Control, and it's there to present as an issue.

Much like if you hate being CC'd for too long, you can stat EGO. To avoid being a shuttlecock in combat with knock happy NPCs, CON PSS (w/specs) or STR PSS will be very useful.

I would support a suggestion to force ALL NPCs to be unable to knock your character off their feet if they are blocking, much like what has happened with Gravitar Clone's knocks in the TA lair.

The issue lies with NPCs, not players. If NPCs were unable to knock players through blocking mechanics (enhanced or basic), there would be MUCH less trouble, all players would need to do is take advantage of the counter mechanic in place (block).

itsbrou

I don't find that to be a good idea at all.

I think the opportunity costs are spread out really well.

I can make a ninja that never falls down or gets pinned down for long, hits hard, but if he takes one to the chin, he's through.
Tie that to defense, and I guarantee it will lead us to new magetanking or several more nerfs to defense rating.

squirrelloid

theravenforce said:

I'd disagree with this suggestion.

Why?

In CO, we have a relatively rare ability. Block.

Block is incredibly useful and can, protect against being flung left, right and center in instances and in combat as well as NPC & Player CC systems.

All it requires is that players make active use of it and NPCs obey it globally, currently the second part is an issue.

There is no reason to further reward players who stack defense by making them nigh immune to Crowd Control as well. NPCs in PvE do make use of Crowd Control, and it's there to present as an issue.

Much like if you hate being CC'd for too long, you can stat EGO. To avoid being a shuttlecock in combat with knock happy NPCs, CON PSS (w/specs) or STR PSS will be very useful.

I would support a suggestion to force ALL NPCs to be unable to knock your character off their feet if they are blocking, much like what has happened with Gravitar Clone's knocks in the TA lair.

The issue lies with NPCs, not players. If NPCs were unable to knock players through blocking mechanics (enhanced or basic), there would be MUCH less trouble, all players would need to do is take advantage of the counter mechanic in place (block).

Mostly agree, especially on the needing to make NPCs obey knock resistance appropriately.

But even then, really high knock resistance still gets knocked far too often even when the NPCs do obey it. I have a character with 850 strength. I'd estimate she gets knocked ~1/4 times or so, even when the NPC mechanics are following knock resistance rules, and then she goes flying.

The OP's suggestion is terrible. But knock mechanics are also kinda bad too. My preferred fix is for knock resistance to reduce knock strength, so if you vastly out-resist the strength of the knock, it should barely move you even if you get 'knocked'. (Some knocks are obviously going to have their knock strength be based on str or ego, but some knocks should be fixed strength - like shotgun. I don't care how awesome your stats are, your shotgun is a piece of equipment, not magically powered by your mind).

wraithshadow13

squirrelloid said:

The OP's suggestion is terrible. But knock mechanics are also kinda bad too.

This is why I was asking for suggestions, not just telling me no.

I do like your suggestion of adding a knock resist to strength, but what about the holds and sleep and such? Would those get benefits from Ego or Constitution?

What would be a better way to get around some of the less than passable mechanics here?

theravenforce

wraithshadow13 said:

squirrelloid said:

The OP's suggestion is terrible. But knock mechanics are also kinda bad too.

This is why I was asking for suggestions, not just telling me no.

I do like your suggestion of adding a knock resist to strength, but what about the holds and sleep and such? Would those get benefits from Ego or Constitution?

What would be a better way to get around some of the less than passable mechanics here?

UM.

Hold Resistance that actually works is tied into EGO stat already.

STR and EGO used to share hold resistance but back when there were two different "parent" classes of CC, namely:

Intangible and Tangible.

Intangible CC = Binding of Aratron & Ego Storm etc

Tangible CC = Entangling Mesh & Crippling Coils etc

--

Tangible/Intangible CC was discarded (somewhat) and rolled into just plain old CC, which EGO (and to an extent PRE) grant resistance to.

EGO value boosts your breakfree damage whilst PRE is supposed to reduce the overall power of the CC hitting you to begin with.

--

Take a toon with EGO into TA and watch out for Teleiosaur tells for the roar and block it. Once you are blocking it, look at the timer, for me, the timer/duration changes based on my Ego value.

holloweaver

If I had a suggestion, I would but I don't really have one nor I do really have a problem vs knocks.
I even heard a line from Grond, in the Desert, that I never heard before : "why you don't fall down when Grond hits you?" or something along this. And he says this each time he fails to knock me. It can be rather repetitive, lol.

In the suggestion box, under Recovery Stat Changes, someone suggested a Knock Recovery. It sounds interesting. Maybe you can go there and have a look? All I can say is I don't really feel concerned with this problem, I don't really suffer that much from being knocked and definitely not by any ennemy.

holloweaver

gradii said:

You must be running a CON primary STR secondary character with a heck of a lot of superstats and maxed out knock resist from CON and 2 rank 9 Anti knock cores or you're not paying attention.

That or you're just so ridiculously lucky statistics don't apply to you at all.

I don't have any r9 mod, and never heard about knock cores? The added knock resist bonus comes from Parry w/ Elusive Monk.
So... what I'm pointing here with my build if that it's here, it's already here. If someone wants to build specifically vs knock, he can and he doesn't even need to buy r9/knock cores. Yep, it has a cost in terms of offense but it's called a choice.

wraithshadow13

holloweaver said:

Yep, it has a cost in terms of offense but it's called a choice.

But for how long will those choices be valid? I've already had several powersets nerfed , and they don't really seem to be placing too much effort into balancing things, or fixing things in some cases. Between things that don't seem to work as stated on my healing build, the cooldown nerf effecting one of my tank builds, and my CC character being all but useless since they nerfed that, how long will the choices really be all that viable?

That's part of the reasoning for the post. Between where the game is Broken, unbalanced, or just poorly designed/maintained, there seem to be gaps forming. During leveling (more so with concept builds) it becomes excessively annoying. During new content, it becomes frustrating. Yes, there are choices, but those choices are being handled much like the rest of the game, which can often be poorly, so while you CAN build specifically against knocks, or to dodge, or to resist controls and so on, it's leaving you entirely vulnerable to other things, pushing people to have to find loopholes like the wardicator and such. Defensive stats can be a bit of a boon when the game becomes a DPS race at times, but more so, when they're not really taking the proper time to balance the game for new content, while fixing old and broken powers or updating things.

baelogventure

I'd simply like a way for non-STR tanks to have meaningful knock resistance that doesn't involve using Circle of Primal Dominion.

This is not the correct way to do it, but I still want a way for ALL non-STR tanks to not be thrown around.

holloweaver

wraithshadow13 said:

holloweaver said:

Yep, it has a cost in terms of offense but it's called a choice.

But for how long will those choices be valid? I've already had several powersets nerfed , and they don't really seem to be placing too much effort into balancing things, or fixing things in some cases. Between things that don't seem to work as stated on my healing build, the cooldown nerf effecting one of my tank builds, and my CC character being all but useless since they nerfed that, how long will the choices really be all that viable?

That's part of the reasoning for the post. Between where the game is Broken, unbalanced, or just poorly designed/maintained, there seem to be gaps forming. During leveling (more so with concept builds) it becomes excessively annoying. During new content, it becomes frustrating. Yes, there are choices, but those choices are being handled much like the rest of the game, which can often be poorly, so while you CAN build specifically against knocks, or to dodge, or to resist controls and so on, it's leaving you entirely vulnerable to other things, pushing people to have to find loopholes like the wardicator and such. Defensive stats can be a bit of a boon when the game becomes a DPS race at times, but more so, when they're not really taking the proper time to balance the game for new content, while fixing old and broken powers or updating things.

That's a lot of questions. I sure have an opinion on some of them but back to the CC Resist suggestion, would you?
Personally I would suggest more customization options because to choose between only 3-4 power/specs for CC resist is not exactly the way to "be the hero you want".

wraithshadow13

I haven't ever really touched CC resists. It's been useless for the most part for such a long time. At one point, it seemed almost like a PvP only kind of item. With newer content, it seems like there is no point to it either, simply because the boss mechanics and such still just bypass what ever you have, OR, building to defend against one weakens you against the rest, but building for all, can just leave you weaker in general.

Maybe giving the stats a boost to their defensive boosts, but aside from the total fix and rebalance of the powers for both npcs and pcs (which would never happen), I really don't know what else to suggest. As stated, I really enjoy coming back for the designing and conceptualizing of heroes, but with the current state of the game, and how they keep nerfing/breaking things, even that seems like it's getting difficult.

Hell, I can't even make it into the game itself at the moment. The game crashes during the initial load screen.

To be honest, I'm surprised the game hasn't just been shut down yet, but I'm really not seeing any steps forwards with the actual building of our heroes. The new powers are often useless or underwhelming, not to mention locked behind gimmicks. They're breaking more than the team is fixing. We've actually been told no new powersets (though that was CN, and hopefully not the new teams idea).

I just really wonder what will happen once City of Titans hits. In the next year or two, this game is just sinking itself further.


Aside from the obvious, I really have no other suggestions that Cryptic would even bother with, but if the game is just breaking more, something needs to be done before it's too late, if it's not already.

holloweaver

Oh right, there had been a lot of changes before and after Alert. Not all good but not all bad either.
And the same old anti-knock tricks still work (Flight to avoid fall damages, Athletics/Acrobatics/Swinging with their jump height can negate some of the knock-up/fall damages). Also the fall damages had been drastically nerfed in between so it's not a guaranteed death anymore.

Even before these changes, the knock-away never killed me. It was just annoying as I had to lunge back. It also explains how I got the habit to put CC on my lunge, hehe. Get knocked away, lunge+taunt to grab aggro back asap.

I would love to see more diversity. The freeform is already a masquerade that can barely hide anymore that we moved to the standard Trinity (dps, healer, tank). But then they should really do it and offer more trinity options : gearset with +% melee damages, gearset with +% cc resist, gearset with +% healing, etc etc...

Changing the game mechanics about this or that? Well when I look at what they did with Telepathy, I'm not sure I want them to change anything more. Personal story (and memory) : I was gold before Alert but I couldn't complete Nadir of the Invaders in the Desert, there was no way for my character to go melee vs 5 PowerArmors + 5 Brickbusters without dieing. I spent hours looking for a Mind AT to help me... Now? bleh. It's the total opposite and that is if someone had been naive enough to build a Mind AT. Why?... But either way, the problem is that it doesn't even stop here : the Mind AT had never been updated accordingly to the TP changes. And so on, and so on, and so on for everything change.
When someone wants to change something, she should implement the change into the whole thing. If we leave a part of the whole thing behind, it's going to rip, it's not going to work. So nothing personal about you, but each time I read "change this game mechanic", I tend to reply that it may not be such a good suggestion.

For the future? I was not optimistic when they patched Alert but the game is still here. I'm not optimistic with the latest TA/Recog patch but I believe the game'll still be around for the next 3-5 years, probably the time for PWE to earn enough money out of NW and then reconsider better options.

wraithshadow13

well supposedly, Cryptic is working on some secret project, but that's been listed on their sight for years. I don't know if it's just a general "we're doing something" or if it's actually a secret project (given how long games take to develop), but I would be curious to hear more about it. Given the current issues with the engine and the games, would it even be worth it at this point?

Part of me hopes that it's either a new, more up to date engine for their games, but I really don't think they have it in them anymore. Between the crap going on in all three games, the business model of fix nothing and overcharge for everything, and the PWE bosses, I really don't think I'd be all that interested in anything Cryptic puts it's names on anymore.


I dunno... with the breaks, bad mechanics, or just uselessness of somethings, I think something should be done. The best option is the fixing and rebalancing, but that's never going to happen. It seems more people are against merging some of the defensive values (i.e. all of them), Cryptic doesn't seem to care at all, and frankly, at this point it seems like a lot of players don't either.

johannekirk

The problem I find, is that the distance knocked is stupidly high, but the damage is stupidly low. If you get knocked 20 yards into a brick wall, it should HURT! Right now it's the most OP mob ability & the worst waste of time player ability. Reduce the distance, make anti KB powers/specs work better, but return the damage to what it was before you nerfed it & made the game a giant rubber bouncy house. It feels stupid to knock/be knocked that far and have no damage result from it.

renegade0

This game would be 70% less annoying if they they turned down the knock back by a lot and replace it with knock up. For me, knockback is the worst part about this game. The same with City of Heroes. But at least with CoH, the entire playerbase agreed not to use knockback abilities and send things flying around. The game also provided ways to defend yourself against it and it just didn't happen all the time. This game seems like love it. I find myself getting knocked back and up all the time.

I don't think it should be tied into defense though. I think it should be a part of maybe, Threat generation? I think maybe those of you who don't play characters that can hold aggro and take unlocked hits almost always know the plain of constantly getting knocked back and up. I'm also talking purely pve. Knock up I can live with. But Knockback is the work of the devil.

wraithshadow13

johannekirk said:

The problem I find, is that the distance knocked is stupidly high, but the damage is stupidly low. If you get knocked 20 yards into a brick wall, it should HURT! Right now it's the most OP mob ability & the worst waste of time player ability. Reduce the distance, make anti KB powers/specs work better, but return the damage to what it was before you nerfed it & made the game a giant rubber bouncy house. It feels stupid to knock/be knocked that far and have no damage result from it.

I'm a bit torn on this aspect of it. Personally, I LOVE being able to knock things max distance. If you're the hero (or villain) it's a great feeling to just pound them hard enough that they go flying. I fully agree that it's more nuisance though, given that the damage seems lacking at times. While I don't mind my smaller, less tanky characters taking such a hit occasionally, I find that the NPCs are doing it entirely too frequently, and given how many lower level enemies are doing it, it gets annoying. It's especially worse with the power armor enemies for some reason. The point I was trying to make was let the defensive amount cover the knock and controls better, to make that character all the more unstoppable feeling.


Since it was a less than popular idea, what if they nerfed it like they did with force cascade, where you can't charge it fully with in a certain time frame? At least for players. For NPCs, maybe they could just tone down the frequency and distance? Other controls and roots would have been nicer to get some better defensive resistance too, for the physical ones at least.

aesica

+1 for "combining CC and defense would be a mistake." While certain stats could certainly use a merge of sorts (recovery + endurance, the offensive bonus from ego + strength, etc) rolling CC into defense would cheapen the value of CC pretty drastically.

I will say, however, that there's entirely too much knockback cheese in this game.